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Transcript: BindiMaps – Anna Wright: Making Property Accessible

Kylie Davis:

Welcome to the PropTech podcast. It's Kylie Davis here, and I'm delighted to be your host as we explore the brave new world where technology, real estate and property collide. I passionately believe we need to create and grow a sense of community between the innovators, agents, and property owners and sharing our stories is a great way to do that. Now the aim of each episode is to introduce listeners to a PropTech innovator who is pushing the boundaries of what's possible across how we design build, buy, sell, rent and invest in property and all of the associated behaviour around it. And none of this would be possible without the support of our sponsors. So a big thank you to Direct Connect, Dynamic Methods and Forms Live and the PropTech Association of Australia. Thanks so much guys for your support which makes this podcast possible. Now, have you ever gotten lost inside a large building, like a hospital or a shopping complex?


Kylie Davis:

It can happen to any of us and we know how frustrating and sometimes overwhelming the experience can be. But imagine if you experience a vision impairment and have to deal with those feelings everywhere, every single day. How do you even work out where you are if you can't find the signage to read the braille about where you are? The majority of our buildings are difficult, verging on impossible places to navigate for those with a disability and our next guest is determined to fix that. Dr. Anna Wright is the CEO of Bindimaps. It's a navigation app that works where most traditional GPSs do not, indoors. And while this app can offer convenience to most of us, it is fundamentally changing the way that those with a vision impairment and other disabilities can navigate our internal spaces independently and safely. Anna had a long career in accounting, taxation and lecturing at UTS before a medical diagnosis of a disease that threatened to rob her of her own sight, led her to the life changing decision to pivot, to create Bindimaps.


Kylie Davis:

Now in this episode, we obviously discuss disability and as someone who is able bodied and with limited experience with only a few friends and family in this space, I'm going to confess, I do not always have the right words. So if my use of any disability terminology in this interview is not correct, which I'm pretty sure it isn't at sometimes, I apologise in advance. And I hope that it can be forgiven in the context that I believe it's better for us to have these conversations openly and fearlessly and make some mistakes and learn from being corrected than to panic about being politically correct and worry about saying the wrong thing and thereby saying nothing at all and leaving us all ignorant still and in the dark. So here to tell us all about Bindimaps and to mentor me in disability access, Anna Wright. Welcome to the PropTech podcast.


Dr Anna Wright:

Thank you for having me, Kylie.


Kylie Davis:

No, it's great. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. So tell me, we always ask our guests, what's the Bindimaps elevator pitch?


Dr Anna Wright:

Okay, so Bindimaps is a smartphone app that helps anyone find their way around a complicated building or precinct. So if you think about hospitals, shopping centres, universities, so we help everybody get around these days. But when we first started, we were solving the problem for people who are blind or vision impaired because I challenge everybody listening that the next time you see a braille sign in public, ask yourself if you were blind, how would you know that that braille-


Kylie Davis:

It was even there.


Dr Anna Wright:

Yeah, exactly. Bindi is short for be independent and that's really what we… We like to help everyone, but particularly people with a disability so we went on from working with people with vision impairment, we've now got wheelchair accessible routing. We are working on autism spectrum routing and then there's just general way finding for people who are used to using something like Google maps, but that stops working once you get inside of the hospital and you still need to find your ward or appointment, so that's where we take over.


Kylie Davis:

Okay, awesome. So I'd never, why would I have thought, I guess about the braille sign because I don't know anyone whose vision impaired to that degree. How big an issue is accessibility in Australian commercial and retail and important buildings?


Dr Anna Wright:

Look, accessibility is really important Kylie. A couple of things, it's one in every 42 Australians is blind or vision impaired so it's quite a lot. But you'll say, "But I never see anyone out there with a white cane or a guide dog." Well, there's a reason for that. They're all stuck at home, well not all of them, but especially once you get inside of the building, you'll find that many people with a disability need to have assistance, need to have somebody with them and if they don't, they can't get around. But accessibility is hugely important. I mean, we saw not that long ago, there was a finding by the Federal court against the Sunshine Coast Private Hospital around somebody with vision impairment and unable to find where he needed to go to. So from a legal point of view, it's really important but just from a societal point of view, these are public buildings so it means it's not the hospital for only sighted people, it's the hospital for everyone. So everybody should be able to get around independently and that's where we come in. So yeah, it's good work, but it wasn't an easy problem to solve replicating that old GPS indoors.


Kylie Davis:

I can imagine. So I just want to also go back and have a look because you mentioned autism spectrum before too.


Dr Anna Wright:

Yeah.


Kylie Davis:

What do guidelines or what does accessibility for people on autism spectrum look like?


Dr Anna Wright:

It's more around helping them identify areas of high, either visual stimulation or auditory stimulation, so you can have quiet areas. We are working with a couple of advocacy groups on this, so we've always worked with advocacy groups because we don't necessarily have the lived experience to be able to do this but I've been around shopping centres. And it's amazing when you go around with somebody who is autistic and they're talking about what they're experiencing and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, yes." The centre itself has music piping but then over there, there's a shop that's got its own music going. And then over there, there's a food court so it's really noisy. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is horrible with you." When you actually get to talk to somebody or be with somebody as they're explaining their experience. So that's what we are working on, we haven't finished it yet but we have indications on the map of high sensory areas versus low or hopefully what we're going to be able to do is to choose routing options so you can actually choose like you can for wheelchairs, but you can choose that you want to have low visual stimulation as you're going through a spot which is shiny for floors and that sort of thing.


Kylie Davis:

Of all the worst things that… Well, I mean shopping centres are terrible at the best of times, aren't they? Look, I can imagine if you do have a spectrum disorder, it would be that kind of torture to be in some shopping centres. I mean I know how bad I feel when Christmas time or things like that, when there's too many people and too much stimulation. If that was something that really affected you, it would be awful.


Dr Anna Wright:

Absolutely. It would be awful. And then when we talk about shopping centres, that's really just consumption but let's go across to a place of education. So there's research done by Vision Australia where people with a disability in general, but particularly people who are blind or vision impaired have got a 60% higher chance of having a job if they have some sort of tertiary qualification so 60% between being on government welfare and contributing to society. So if we can get places like universities and TAFE colleges, also thinking about this sort of how can we create spaces where everybody can come and study? So whether you are blind or if you're in a wheelchair or if you are on the autism spectrum, it's still a place that you can feel confident that you're going to be able to get around with no problems. And then workplaces, so we actually do a lot of work in workplaces which I think is fantastic. So many big companies putting money behind their diversity and inclusion mandates and preempting, making sure that their workspace is a happy and welcoming. But can you imagine starting a brand new job and you've got to ask the person next to you to take you to the bathroom?


Kylie Davis:

Yeah. That's…


Dr Anna Wright:

[crosstalk 00:09:32] just be horrible, wouldn't it?


Kylie Davis:

When I worked at Call Logic, I was very blessed to be a colleague of Chris Benos from IDS and Chris is in a wheelchair, severely disabled, sort of has limited arm movement. And he and I were desk mates and so you got an amazing perspective sitting next to someone and how fabulous he was at his job. But when we would go out for lunch as a team, we would literally have one person in front of him, one person behind kind of clearing out, grabbing the lifts and clearing the obstacle. It would be like a convoy.


Dr Anna Wright:

Again, that's not independent for him.


Kylie Davis:

No, no.


Dr Anna Wright:

If he wanted to go out to lunch on his own then what happens? Yeah, so that's what we are all about, is letting everybody independently do whatever it is that they want to do.


Kylie Davis:

Absolutely. Absolutely. So tell me, how does the technology work, Anna?


Dr Anna Wright:

So we rely on a network of low power energy Bluetooth beacons. So I've got one to show you, but it's disappeared. So they're just little tiny things that emit a signal and we use that the same way that you would use GPS. We are using the trilateration algorithms to work out exactly where the phone is in space. We've got those algorithms and then we've got another bunch of algorithms that helps map your journey. So when you tell us where you want to go to, then algorithms need to work out what is the most effective routing for you, depending on if you have selected that you want wheelchair accessible routing or not and then hopefully when we've got the autism spectrum routing. And then if you get off course, it just reroutes you back on onto the right way to go to get to where you need to go to so it sounds easy.


Kylie Davis:

All technology's easy. It's just typing, it's just code. How hard can it be?


Speaker 3:

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Kylie Davis:

So I have a question and at the risk of sounding ignorant but if I am severely vision impaired, how do I use a mobile phone app?


Dr Anna Wright:

Wow. Yeah, it's actually one of the things I love about Apple. They were the leaders in this. You can actually go onto the Apple website and see all of the different accessibility features that they've got. But one that has then been replicated into Android is a thing called voiceover. So basically you touch your phone and it reads out to you what's being put in there to be read on voiceover. Funny thing is that I've actually shown sighted people how to use the phone in voiceover. And some people actually prefer that because you can put your phone in your pocket. You're not buried in your phone, following the blue line as you go around the shopping centre. You can just have one of your earphones in and just be listening to it while your head's up and you're enjoying the beautiful day.


Kylie Davis:

I mean, I've got very big text on my phone so I can relate to that but I was [crosstalk 00:13:32] maybe I should try.


Dr Anna Wright:

Don't put your phone into voiceover. All the key strokes are completely different.


Kylie Davis:

But I just wondered, taking that example of you don't know the sign is there in braille until someone basically shows it to you, I guess. But with the Apple and Android phones all being so sleek and glassy, I just wondered how that worked too. I am going to confess complete ignorance and then I am finding this a uniting interview that's opening my mind as to how difficult people find things.


Dr Anna Wright:

Well, and also just how technology has been created to help people with different disabilities. So in the work context with somebody who's blind, they can still study. They can still work because we've got StreamReader technology so there's nothing to stop people from contributing and in fact, I'd like to call out one of our great friends at Bindimaps who's done a lot of testing for us. He's completely blind, so no light sensitivity at all but he works for NASA identifying new planets from the sound waves. So again, you can Google this and get the sound waves that our planets make. But when our planets are passing in front of our suns in other solar systems, of course, we will go and look for them but they using the sound waves instead. And just imagine where we get all of those different skill sets into solving some of our really big issues with climate change and everything, how much better are our solutions going to be when we have true diversity of thought at the table?


Kylie Davis:

Absolutely. So Google did have a project at one point though to do internal mapping, are they not doing this?


Dr Anna Wright:

So a couple of problems that Google would have so Google's great at that sort of car level because you can use GPS and we've got the Maps available. A couple of problems once you get indoors, if you want to be able to localise a phone, you need to have some additional hardware to be able to do that. So Google might have floor plans and they do have floor plan for some of the big buildings, but they cannot localise you in that building because they don't have that technology deployed. The other problem for Google or the other thing that we've found in working with our clients is that not all of our clients want all of their maps available to the public, which is very much… That's Google's place that everything's crowdsourced and open plan and all of that so a couple of the universities that we work with, they've got body farms. They don't want every student on campus to know…


Kylie Davis:

Know where bodies are, literally.


Dr Anna Wright:

Exactly.


Kylie Davis:

Okay.


Dr Anna Wright:

And the banks that we work with, they don't necessarily want everybody to know where the vault is. So that's where that complication comes in is that, we are going from, even though they're public buildings, they still have private spaces. How would Google handle that would be the question?


Kylie Davis:

Okay. So who are some of your clients? I mean you've got public buildings, you've got a lot of commercial buildings and retail. Who are your clients and how are they responding to Bindimaps?


Dr Anna Wright:

So the app itself is free to use, to download, there's no logins, nothing. We never wanted to put an extra price burden onto people who have a disability so our clients are the building owners and managers, and we have a huge range in different verticals. So we've got sports stadiums, like Melbourne Sports and Aquatic Centre. We've got shopping centres so we've got Stockland Shopping Centres. We are working with Vicinity and all of their shopping centres. We've got hospitals, so St. Vincent's Hospital here in Sydney, Sydney Eye Hospital. What else? We've got lots of office buildings, call out to KPMG who've just installed us across all of their spaces because they wanting to fulfil their diversity and inclusion mandates. Yeah, so Brookfield, we are just finished installing above and around Wynyard Station, for Brookfield Place Sydney. So yeah, we're all over the place. We were slowed down during COVID so hopefully sort of now through to the middle of next year, people will go to see in more and more Bindimaps locations popping up all over the place which is exciting.


Kylie Davis:

Very exciting. So how did you get into this sector, Anna? What's your background?


Dr Anna Wright:

By accident.


Kylie Davis:

Oh, I love these stories. Was there wine involved? There usually is [inaudible 00:18:47].


Dr Anna Wright:

Well, yeah. Well in startups, I think that's… It's either coffee or wine [inaudible 00:18:55].


Kylie Davis:

Depending what time of the day it is.


Dr Anna Wright:

Exactly. So Bindimaps started from a grant or an accelerator programme called SheStarts which backed non-technical founders. So my background is in finance and accounting, I've done plenty of work with startups but from that sort of capital raising financial model point of view. I've never been on this side and I'll tell all of my accounting friends, this side is way more fun than just doing all the spreadsheeting. The reason or the burning desire to solve this problem was actually because I have a vision impairment. I have a retinal condition which I should be blind from already but I'm not, thanks to some brilliant doctors. But when you get that sort of diagnosis, you start to do some training around what life is going to be like. And that was where many of my friends will tell you that, for years I've been carrying on about braille and also, there's some fun sort of Twitter accounts on braille fails. So ones that'll say, press the red button. That's what the braille says and it's just going…


Kylie Davis:

I thought you were going to say it's like a Chinese, English kind of mistranslation sort of thing sometime but no, just…


Dr Anna Wright:

There have been things like that. There was a unisex toilet sign that was just unsex so sort of works but then you go, who's reading the braille anyway?


Speaker 3:

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Kylie Davis:

Oh, okay. So are you the only guys in the market doing this or is there a market out there for it?


Dr Anna Wright:

Oh, there's always competitors with whatever you do. I mean, we've been fighting our way around public buildings for a long time now. So we've got competitors from kiosk's paper maps, signage, that sort of thing. Our difference with those, of course is that ours is accessible. Well, usually kiosks themselves aren't even accessible so then you've got other providers out there that are trying to do what we do, but they haven't quite nailed the accessibility part of it or haven't been able to get the accuracy that we've got on the localization. So we know where you are in space down to between that sort of 50 centimetres to a metre and at worse a metre and a half. So that's pretty good for us to know where your phone is in space.


Kylie Davis:

Yeah, awesome. So you mentioned before that there's little beacons that are playing a role or that are at kind of at the core of the tech, how long does it take to roll these things out into a building?


Dr Anna Wright:

Not long at all. I mean, when we first started…


Kylie Davis:

So why isn't everyone doing it?


Dr Anna Wright:

Well, they will be. I mean, we're startup of 12 so it's about just getting the word out there and it's a snowball effect. We get St Vincent's hospital and then we talked to other hospitals. It's not hard. We actually get the building management team themselves, so the people that go around and replace the light bulbs can go around and put the beacons up. They just double sided sticky tape. It's not tricky in any way, shape or form. And then a lot of buildings already have a beacon network in play, and that's what we're doing with Vicinity. So they already have a beacon network in place so we just upload everything but nobody leaves their desk. It all just gets plugged, plug and play so that's exciting.


Kylie Davis:

Yeah. So you said you've got 12 staff now. How big are you and how long have you been going for?


Dr Anna Wright:

So we started in… When did we start? At the beginning of 2017 with just me. It was just me for a couple of years, just trying to get proof of concept and then funding. And now we've grown to this group of 12. We are split between Sydney and Melbourne. And just, we all run around like chucks with our heads cut off.


Kylie Davis:

Oh, I know that feeling very well. And so you mentioned before, is there legislation that covers building owners to make their buildings more accessible?


Dr Anna Wright:

Yes, there is. And there's the Disability Discrimination Act and which you certainly don't want a full foul of. There's also workplace health and safety rules where you have to make the sure that your workplace is adequate for anyone who might be coming into the building. So yes, we do come in on a lot of that and that's why I'm talking to you and doing these sorts of interviews is great because we want to get the word out there, but we've got places on our website if you want to nominate. You need your building or your shopping centre is revolting and you [inaudible 00:24:44] Bindimaps, because it's funny, we talk to some shopping centres. I won't name names here, but they think that their shopping centres are perfectly easy to navigate. One in particular, I went to have a meeting with them. They was like… And then I spent two hours trying to find my car again. So I had to ring them going, "I'm lost in your car park," Because that's the other thing we can do with Bindimaps which is one of my favourite features. You can drop a pin. So with Bindimaps the car park, you can drop a pin on your car then search for your shop, go do your shopping and then just go straight back to your car again.


Kylie Davis:

No more [inaudible 00:25:25] episodes of looking for the car in the car park, right?


Dr Anna Wright:

I know because we've all been there.


Kylie Davis:

We've all been there. And look I know too, for people who are caring for people with a disability too, going out can be really stressful. I remember with my dad with dementia, worrying about access, worrying about stairs, worrying about where the loos were and would you be able to find them in time and all of those sorts of things. Worrying about going through the food hall because of the chairs that could be tripped over and all of that sort of stuff, it does become very stressful for carers as well if you're dealing with someone or if you're looking after someone and you trying to have a nice afternoon out. That can often end in tears because of those things. Losing the car


Dr Anna Wright:

No longer a nice afternoon out because you've had a poor experience because you haven't been able to find the disabled bathroom or whatever else you want. And that's really why we are here is because we want everyone to feel included. And again, I'll do a shout out to one of our clients. Stockland is very much into that their community is all of the community and they're well aware that they've got carers, they've got people in wheelchairs and they want that experience to be the best that it can be for their community. So yeah, more power to these businesses that are actually thinking about this.


Kylie Davis:

Cool. And just to go back to the legislation too, I guess, as an employer, you need to make sure that you are in a building that has access to these things or to be hassling your landlord to be upgrading. And as a building owner, you need to be making sure that you are attracting, that you've got these things in place to get great tenant experiences happening.


Dr Anna Wright:

Absolutely. If you want to be a fully five, 10 star building, then this is some of the stuff that you need. And at the end of the day, it's not that expensive for building owners. So there's very few hurdles, apart from just first hearing about us and [inaudible 00:27:35] we're here and we've got the backing from Guide Dogs. We've got partnerships with Guide Dogs, Vision Australia and Royal Society for the Blind. So we have all of the… Everything's been ticked to say that, "yes, we can do what we do." And with Bindimaps, well it is the only way that somebody who's blind could independently exit a building in a fire or another emergency so that's a big deal. Most people who I've spoken to that work in buildings and I ask them, what's your, it's called a PEEP, a personal emergency evacuation programme? And they, "Well, we get told to go and wait at the goods lift for the fire brigade to turn up."


Kylie Davis:

Follow the green sign.


Dr Anna Wright:

Yeah, exactly. Follow the green signs and I'm thinking, "You are happy with that? Do you really follow the green sign or just wait as the building's burning down around.` You're just waiting." And they actually laugh because they say if the building's burning down and it's full of smoke, everybody else needs to find them because the guide dog's going to be the only one.


Kylie Davis:

That will know what to do.


Dr Anna Wright:

Well, if they can still navigate the way out. So there's actually stories of that from 9-11 of guide dogs, taking people, [crosstalk 00:28:59] leading people down the stairs. Yeah, to hold groups of people so yeah, anyway.


Kylie Davis:

Oh, that gives me shivers. So what's your business model Anna? Subscription or is it just installation?


Dr Anna Wright:

No, it's just a subscription. So it's a monthly subscription fee for the building owners. And so from that we keep… Because this is another thing is keeping the maps up to date. So if you can imagine shopping centre shops change all the time so we're on top of that things. Things like some of these big old hospitals, all their signages are out of date because their things change.


Kylie Davis:

Yes, I know.


Dr Anna Wright:

Even on the doors themselves, the signs can be wrong. So we keep all of those maps up to date. We keep the hardware up to date. We can do the beacon installation if they need it otherwise we just ship beacons or tell them what to buy and they put it around. We've also got a data dashboard but there's no sign on the app, but we do collect anonymized, highly anonymized data. We're not even scraping Apple phone IDs, but that gives building owners a sense of heat maps where people are going, where people aren't going, potentially what needs cleaning more frequently than something else in COVID time. So there's quite a lot of benefit apart from that sort of workplace health and safety and inclusion play that Bindimaps gives back to building owners.


Kylie Davis:

Awesome. Awesome. And so what do you think… What does the next five years look like for disability access? It seems like we are becoming a lot more accessible.


Dr Anna Wright:

Yeah. And I think it's really exciting. I think it's going to get the point, at the front of this call, you said that you didn't really know anyone who was blind or vision impaired or had the guide dog. I always say sort of fairly offhand that in the next couple years, I want every sighted person to know how to shake hands with somebody who's blind. That it's just what it is, that we have people in wheelchair, we have people who are blind. We all can speak a little bit of Auslan, that we are much more accepting society and I think that's where we, where we are going. So in five years time, yeah I hope to see… Well, our plan is that Bindimaps will be everywhere, worldwide and we can just enjoy a much more robust society as a result.


Kylie Davis:

Well, I love this vision of inclusion and I love how PropTech's enabling that because having cared for a dad with dementia and friends that, well not vision impaired, I've got friends on all sorts of other spectrums who I can see this would help enormously. And gosh, my eyesight's going so I'm sure in 20 years time Anna, I'll be, if not earlier, I will definitely be using it.


Dr Anna Wright:

Well, hopefully even earlier, because I think it'll be one of those things that we'll go, oh, what's this [inaudible 00:32:13] and then you start using it and you go, "Oh my goodness."


Kylie Davis:

How did I live without it?


Dr Anna Wright:

How did I live without it? It's like our iPhones, we've only had them for what? 10 or 11 years but now, our smartphones, we go, what would-


Kylie Davis:

How did I live without it?


Dr Anna Wright:

How did I live without this thing in my pocket?


Kylie Davis:

Yeah. Well, I love the idea of being able to find the car in a car park. Okay. Well look, thanks so much for being on the show. I know it's been great to talk to you and I really do look forward to, in the very near future, inclusion and diversity in workplaces being really facilitated by and public areas facilitated by Bindimaps maps.


Dr Anna Wright:

Yeah. And as I said, hopefully very soon, everybody will know somebody who's blind a vision impaired because they'll be studying with them, working with them or running into them at the shops.


Kylie Davis:

Fantastic. Great to have you on the show.


Dr Anna Wright:

Thanks Kylie.


Kylie Davis:

That was Dr. Anna Wright from Bindimaps. And I feel like that for subject as important as disability access, we probably shouldn't have laughed as much as we did in that interview. But look, let's unpack that because since I did the interview with Anna, I've been thinking a lot about privilege and reflecting on my own experiences for caring with someone with a disability, which was my dad who died this year after five years with vascular dementia. Now it was my mom who did 99% of the heavy lifting of caring for dad, which she did with extraordinary love and grace. But what struck me in those times over the past few years when we were all together was just how much of a privilege being able bodied is and how like all privileges, we totally take it for granted. And you don't get to feel the full impact of that privilege until it's taken away from you or until you realise the military precision and sheer bloody minded determination that is required on behalf of those with a disability and or their carers to be independent and engaged in broader society.


Kylie Davis:

During the times when I was caring for dad, I was overwhelmed by just how much of a mental load as much as a physical load goes into getting out the door without a fully laid plan in your head where you're going to park, the disabled accessibility of where you are going. The need to know where all the loos are and the disastrous way, the day can quickly turn if any of those things are unknown. It made me realise how truly heroic my friends with a disability truly are. And so for the majority of us who are privileged with the ability to duck quickly into the office, to do a hot lap of the shops, to jump out of a cab quickly, or to navigate a hospital, to visit a friend for the first time, we need to look at how precious that privilege is and how ridiculous it is to assume that the way we've planned and designed our buildings is perfectly fine for everyone.


Kylie Davis:

We need to make these improvements not because it's mandated, but because it's the right thing to do and because we can. And it seems so evident that when you find situations where it's not the case, it does make you laugh for the sheer ridiculousness of it. And so I think that's why Anna and I did laugh so much in this interview because privileged thinking is always ridiculous. And humour is always one of the most effective ways to reduce the power of difficult situations. So I've said it a lot and I do passionately believe that PropTech will save the planet. And I'm going to add to that too, and say that PropTech can save us as people. PropTech like Bindimaps is PropTech for good and has so many benefits, not just for those using the app, but for building owners and tenants themselves. So download the app, even if you just need it to help you guide you back to your car in the car park, but tell your friends and demand that a building near you, that you use regularly be upgraded with the tech.


Kylie Davis:

Reach out to centre management and tell them about Bindimaps. Now, if you have enjoyed this episode of the PropTech podcast, I would love you to tell all of your friends. Check out all our episodes on the proptechpodcast.com or drop me a line either via email, LinkedIn or Facebook. You can follow us on Spotify, Google podcasts, Anchor, and Apple iTunes or anywhere good podcasts are heard. I'd like to thank my podcast producer, Charlie Hollands, and my sponsors Direct Connect, making moving easy. Dynamic Methods, the name behind Forms Live, REI Forms Live and Real Works and the PropTech Association, Australia. Australia's industry body supporting the flourishing PropTech community. And if you are an Australian or New Zealand PropTech, who would like to be on the show, drop us a line via LinkedIn or kylie@proptechassociation.com.au. Thanks everyone. Until next time, keep on prop tagging.