Kylie Davis: (00:01)
Welcome to The Proptech Podcast. It's Kylie Davis here, and I'm delighted to be your host as we explore the brave new world where technology and real estate collide. I passionately believe we need to create and grow a sense of community between the innovators and real estate agents. And sharing our stories is a great way to do that. Now, the aim of each episode is to introduce listeners to a proptech innovator who is pushing the boundaries of what's possible and to explore the issues and challenges raised by the tech and how they can create amazing property experiences.
Kylie Davis: (00:35)
My guest in this episode is Craig Deveson from Properti, and that's Properti spelt with an I, a proptech that turns your CRM into a social media machine, making it easy to create targeted posts for Facebook, Instagram, and other social media. Social media and how to do it is a huge issue for agents. New data from ActivePipe, authored by yours truly, found that 93% of agents believe digital and social media marketing is important to their success, but only 42% feel that their skills are good, and just 4% think that they are excellent. So there is a huge need for tech that simplifies and makes it easy to get results.
Kylie Davis: (01:19)
Now, Craig has a long track record creating technology businesses on Amazon Web Services, AWS. He and I first met a couple of years ago at The PropTech Summit, where he, Sarah Bell, and James Dearsley, and I ended the night propping up the bar and solving all the problems of the proptech universe. So here to tell us all about it, so Craig Deveson, welcome to The Proptech Podcast.
Craig Deveson: (01:44)
Thanks for having me on. Looking forward to it.
Kylie Davis: (01:47)
It's great. I had completely forgotten that we had met because I am terrible at names. But, of course, now that we're seeing each other on video, although our listeners can't see, we met at The PropTech Summit back with Sarah and James from Unissu.
Craig Deveson: (02:04)
Yes, that's right. I mean, look, I'm sure we would have seen more of each other had it not been for COVID and being able to travel more and go to more conferences. But yeah, it's Zoom these days, so yeah.
Kylie Davis: (02:15)
Yeah. So look, I am really looking forward to the story of Properti, Properti with an I, because as we were talking about before, when we first met, you pitched an idea to me, and I went, "Oh no, that won't work," which at the time I felt terrible about. But so tell me, what is the elevator pitch for your new baby, Properti?
Craig Deveson: (02:40)
We're an all-in-one platform for multichannel social media marketing automation, automotive creative generation, including video and image, for both organic and paid social media for real estate.
Kylie Davis: (02:55)
Okay, so I'm really excited about this because I've just done some work with ActivePipe around what the pain points are in digital marketing. What we saw in that research was that while real estate agents know that they need to be embracing digital marketing better, and especially social media, they don't necessarily understand how to do it. So tell me, how does Properti do it? How does it help?
Craig Deveson: (03:26)
The approach we've taken is we're an all-in-one integrated platform. It connects in with your CRM. So it gets the data from your CRM, and then it creates the images and the videos from that data and then can post organically to all social media channels, so Facebook, Instagram, we're the only proptech that has organic Instagram in the market, LinkedIn, YouTube. We've got Google coming. And then you've got on top of that, the ability to boost it with ads. So it's this all-in-one solution. Actually, like a customer last week said, we're a bit like the ActivePipe for social. We really see ourselves being this integrated offering for social media for real estate.
Kylie Davis: (04:21)
Okay, awesome. So why is social so important for agents to embrace?
Craig Deveson: (04:28)
Look, social is really important for them to embrace because, well, according to one of the surveys from last year from The Close, 83% of new customers come from referrals, but the next most common channel is social. That's at 44%. So people look up an agent on social media for social proof and how they run campaigns and those sorts of things. So that social proof and referral is very, very important. Further to that, in this particular report, what agents said they would focus on this year, and this is US data, but 82% said improve their social media presence, then 65 CRM and email, and then branding. So that branding and improving the social media presence is a big part of differentiating yourself as an agent in the market.
Kylie Davis: (05:32)
Okay. So these are US figures, but we know that we often follow in on behind US trends in this space. First of all, personal referrals, obviously the most powerful form of marketing you've got, but then secondly, potential clients seeing you on Facebook or on social media are using that as evidence to test you out a bit, I guess, or to see whether they like you and want to have a relationship with you.
Craig Deveson: (06:01)
Yeah, so increasingly particularly with millennials or millennials, advising their parents maybe in a downsizing scenario, we'll be looking for social proof and looking for the agents that tell a story about how they run their campaigns, how often they're on these channels, how successful they are, and how well they know their local market.
Kylie Davis: (06:27)
What kind of content are you creating? Is it only listing videos, or is it other content as well?
Craig Deveson: (06:35)
The automatically generated content is around listings, so just listed, just sold, but also things like open for inspection videos and images. That all becomes automated for both rentals and sales, but also the back looking data, so all last month sales. So anything that can be collated together in an automated fashion, we're able to do the heavy lifting in the system. At the moment, yes, the channel is the CRM data, but we'll open that up to other channels of data such as curated content in the future.
Kylie Davis: (07:21)
Okay. Awesome. Well, it sounds a lot like HomePrezzo before it got bought by ActivePipe.
Craig Deveson: (07:29)
We currently don't do… We don't do data such as, say, from PriceFinder or Corelogic at this stage because that is being used on other channels. So we see ourselves as integrating end to end for social. That's why we haven't gone down that path.
Kylie Davis: (07:51)
What are the key blockers to agents doing a better job on social media?
Craig Deveson: (07:59)
Except for the top 5%, agents find social too hard. They really struggle with consistency, being able to keep things on brand, timely, and cross channel. This is often because either the creative's not there, there's a lack of resources. They just find it too hard. They like to talk to their customers, get the listing, bring it into the office. It should be able to go into a plug-and-play system, and they should forget about it. And if it's not like that, it doesn't get used.
Kylie Davis: (08:38)
Right. So you're automating the creation of a lot of this content and then posting it out. How effective is it? What's the evidence that you've got that it's getting engagement or working?
Craig Deveson: (08:55)
So look, I would answer that question in two parts. The first part is the consistency piece and it being on brand and saving time and money. We believe the system pays for itself in a certain size agency just on the labour savings by itself. So that's step one. Step two is you've got to look at certain campaign types. One example would be an example of, say, a just sold campaign. We have this five step process, which is from pre-sale to posting, to promoting, to selling, to getting a testimonial, and then running that testimonial just sold as a paid ad to a landing page seeking appraisal requests. That process actually is the cheapest way of generating branded appraisal requests in the market.
Craig Deveson: (10:03)
You do it by telling a story across this re-targeted data. Now, that's another concept that's not well understood in the industry. But if you have a video that is seen by 50,000 people, with our targeting options, you can then retarget those people that might've watched the video for five seconds or 10 seconds. They convert a whole lot better because they've seen the brand, they've seen the property. You then in the campaign may say that we had this many people through for an inspection. It was $100,000 over price, et cetera, et cetera. And then that drives an inquiry. That is a effective way and very cheap way of driving listing requests or appraisal requests off the back of a successful campaign.
Kylie Davis: (10:54)
Okay. So look, let's just back up again and do a little bit of a summary because I'm conscious that a lot of agents do find social media very complicated. And so, I want to just make sure we're really summarising and getting it very clear. The pain points agents have with creating content consistently is around the time it takes to do it regularly and the work, I guess, involved in manually building it. So you're solving those two problems in that you're making it quick and easy to produce some great quality content. And then you're also making it easy to get it posted on to social media, but then also targeted and retargeting people that may have interacted with that content in some way in the past, or with your content.
Craig Deveson: (11:42)
That's right. What we're trying to do is to take what typically is done in an agency with smart, digital marketers, we're putting it into a playbook, and helping to implement that using technology so that we're able to drive through that in a consistent way for the agents.
Kylie Davis: (12:04)
Okay, awesome. What are some of the results that your clients have seen?
Craig Deveson: (12:11)
The results vary, but if I was to talk about that example of listing requests off the back of a sale, we've seen up to 30 listing… sorry, appraisal requests come off the back off campaigns.
Kylie Davis: (12:30)
For a single campaign?
Craig Deveson: (12:33)
Kylie Davis: (12:34)
Wow. Okay. I love this because one of my big bugbears about real estate agents is that they boast that they've sold a property, but they never tell anyone what they sold it for, which kind of is completely unhelpful. Like, "Of course you sold a property, you're a freaking real estate agent. That's what real estate agents do? There is no news or insight in that, right? But you're saying that by showing that you've sold the property… Are you sharing the price or is that dependent on [crosstalk 00:13:03]?
Craig Deveson: (13:03)
I like to share the price, but it's up to the principal of the agency whether they do that or not. But it's about telling that story, which is things like, "We ran this video campaign, got a 100,000 views. We got this many views on this. We got this many people who engage. We've got this many offers. We had this many bids, and we drove that outcome," to try and drive that social proof. It's real. You're putting yourself out there with real data, not just saying, "I'm a great agent. I sold a property." You're actually giving some people, "Oh, okay. This is how they run a campaign, and here's an example of the results they get."
Kylie Davis: (13:43)
We see agents are very good at explaining what their marketing campaigns look like in traditional and other media, so I guess this is like the missing piece. Yeah, the missing link, the missing piece. Look, I've got a question, that example that you gave where you had 30 responses or requests for an appraisal, did that agent provide the price of the property that was sold?
Craig Deveson: (14:08)
In that case, yes.
Kylie Davis: (14:10)
Ah, there you go.
Craig Deveson: (14:13)
Kylie Davis: (14:14)
I rest my case. Sharing valuable information works.
Craig Deveson: (14:18)
Yes. I come from the place where more information is better, not less.
Kylie Davis: (14:25)
Craig Deveson: (14:26)
I think sharing more of that information is actually better. I think some agents are trying to hide their some sort of secret sauce to running a good listing campaign. Look, there probably are some things, but there's some fundamentals you can share. At the end of the day, it's the brand and that person over and above that. But share that data. I mean, you shouldn't be embarrassed to hide it.
Kylie Davis: (14:54)
No, look, I understand that some vendors might not want their information, but I think we err too far on the side of caution and that once a vendor's sold a property and then they're in the market to buy, their belief around what they should be able to see changes completely. I think the time is right for us to have really upfront conversations with people about the value of sharing that info.
Craig Deveson: (15:16)
It's not just sharing of the price, but it's actually sharing how the campaign was run.
Kylie Davis: (15:21)
Craig Deveson: (15:21)
So just more than just, say, how many people come to the open. How many bidders were there or [inaudible 00:15:30]? Just that information is important, I think, in trying to get validation. The reason why it's better validated publicly on social media rather than just in the listing pack, it's out there. If it's wrong, you've got to stand behind that, right? Where anybody could say that this was what there is in that listing presentation because how do you approve that?
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Kylie Davis: (17:10)
In some of the research that I've been doing with ActivePipe too, we know that not supplying information is a key bugbear of potential buyers. And here's the catch-22 that it creates. Agents today tell me consistently, or tell all of us consistently, Ooh, we're so busy. We're so busy. Life's so hectic. It's all crazy. Technology hasn't dealt the things that we were promised." But that's because agents keep hanging on to doing things the old way. And if you don't provide a price, then if people want to know that price, they have to call you. And then they have to wait for you to call them back. And then you get into this phone tag loop that just adds time to your day when all they wanted to do was see on the website how much you sold it for? That's all they wanted. Like, 'Oh, okay, if that's went for that much, it's either in my budget, out of my budget, or I should sell my house." That's the decision making process that people want to make. But when we don't share that information, we give ourselves 59 more jobs to do by putting more people on our call list in the mistaken belief that they will see that that's better service. They won't, because it takes us too long to get back to them.
Craig Deveson: (18:21)
You're absolutely right. We get some agents that won't turn some of their automation on because they like tinkering with 5% of every listing. That tinkering doesn't really significantly change the campaign, but it adds to this time problem. Whereas, if they did automate more and except a very good campaign, not this extra 5% tinkering all the time, they would have more time to talk to these buyers and be able to get more appraisals out there.
Kylie Davis: (18:57)
Yeah. Awesome. I'm going to get off my soap box, although I'm sure I'll get on it again before we get to the end of this interview, Craig. Tell me what the response has been like to Properti. Did COVID have an impact on you at all, because you're still fairly new? What was that like?
Craig Deveson: (19:19)
So look, our story was I probably had three or four ideas that didn't work. And then we got one that we thought was close. We then went and launched that at an REIQ event. I think that was February last year, exactly when COVID was breaking.
Kylie Davis: (19:39)
Craig Deveson: (19:39)
So we only had half the attendance and everyone was nervous, and we're going, "This is not a good idea." So what we did is we decided to not go ahead with launching the product. We rebuilt it and really relaunched it in July/August. We worked with a couple of our key customers, made the product a whole lot better, and then come out stronger when we were confident we could move forward. In the second half of last year, Queensland and New south Wales in particular, the market was you could poke your head up reasonably safely.
Kylie Davis: (20:17)
Craig Deveson: (20:18)
And that was the market we went into. And really since Christmas, we've been going gangbusters, and like yourself, had our biggest month ever last month.
Kylie Davis: (20:29)
Fantastic. Who are some of your biggest clients, if I can ask?
Craig Deveson: (20:35)
Look, we have focused a lot on boutiques because we haven't wanted to get caught up in the franchise sales cycle. But we have leading boutiques in Queensland such as Calibre, DJ Stringer. We have people like Property Central in regional New south Wales. We have some Ray White offices. We have some First National offices. We have Biggin & Scott offices. So we're getting a good spread of customers through the different cycle. We're also part of the Brisbane Proptech Accelerator group of 12 companies. And that's opening up doors to CEOs of about six franchise groups, for example. So we're expecting that we'll have some very engaged conversations at that level in the coming months with that behind us and a solid product.
Kylie Davis: (21:41)
Fantastic. What's your background, Craig?
Craig Deveson: (21:45)
I'd like to think of myself as a tech entrepreneur. I've built and sold three tech companies. The last two, one was a Google-based business, and the other was an Amazon Web Services business, both to US technology companies.
Kylie Davis: (22:06)
Craig Deveson: (22:06)
So my go-to seems to be create regional companies which get interest from overseas companies. In that process, I suppose I saw real estate from the backend. A very early customer was RP Data, for example, back in a Google business. I introduced Google Maps there, for example.
Kylie Davis: (22:28)
Oh my goodness.
Craig Deveson: (22:30)
[inaudible 00:22:30]. Exactly. And then Google Maps and these sorts of things into some of the franchise groups that all looked after a whole lot of Amazon technology with REI and those sorts of things. I saw all that stuff from the backend, but yeah. So I wanted to, in this startup, pick a vertical, not a horizontal play. I still believe that, yeah, the proptech's a great space and that real estate is going to be disrupted further by technology.
Kylie Davis: (23:04)
Absolutely. I agree with you there. You said that Properti does both organic and boosted posts. Are you boosting or are you using Ads Manager or Facebook Business Manager?
Craig Deveson: (23:21)
Okay. So you-
Kylie Davis: (23:23)
We're getting techie here, peeps, I'm sorry.
Craig Deveson: (23:26)
I use the word boosted because the market tends to understand that better.
Kylie Davis: (23:31)
Got it, yep.
Craig Deveson: (23:32)
But no. We do organic. We boost using, effectively, Business Manager. So we're a Facebook partner and our technology can boost that or run full ad sets and ads. We do all of that through our interface. So what we find is that by being able to do the organic as well off the one platform, really provides that end-to-end solution. We don't clip the ticket on the ad spend, right, so that 100% of the ad spend goes into the campaign, and the customer keeps all of the data. We don't share the data. It's the customer's data. We sit on top of it, and enhance it. So it's all on their accounts and all of their ad spend. So that's quite a different approach, but we believe in transparency and the customer should own their data.
Kylie Davis: (24:31)
Awesome. Okay. So that was a question for Laura Scott, because I'm sure she would be interested. So we're saying that you're using the word boosting, but really that's just the shorthand, not in the technical sense of a Facebook-boosted post versus a Facebook Ad Manager and the full analytics that you're getting from the backend if you're doing it in the proper way through Ad Manager and Business Manager.
Craig Deveson: (24:53)
Yeah, that's correct.
Kylie Davis: (24:55)
Got it. Okay.
Craig Deveson: (24:56)
It's full ads. As I said, the real estate understanding of ads and boosting and organic is quite low. So I try to often go to the lowest common denominator in trying to explain it.
Kylie Davis: (25:10)
No, no, simple works, so I get it. Craig, what do you think are the three things that agents should be doing right now to improve their social and digital marketing?
Craig Deveson: (25:26)
I'll answer that by, first of all, talking about content types. I think that there's really three content types that they should think about. One is automated content, so that can just happen, then curated content, so that could be semi-automated, so it's got some human involvement, and then custom, which probably has very little automation. So how do you group your digital strategy around those things? A lot of the automated stuff can be the heavy lifting that gives you that consistency, but then if you can do a mix of the others, that makes a big difference. Increase the use of social video as opposed to just video. A lot of three-minute videos featuring agents driving in their cars into driveways, don't only… We surveyed 10,000 of these, you only get about 200 views, and the average video is about $700. Now, last time I looked, that's not a good ROI.
Kylie Davis: (26:30)
Craig Deveson: (26:31)
If you create social videos which are 10 seconds, 30 seconds, certainly under a minute for Instagram, you're able to drive that engagement and get people coming back to your site or whatever they look at. The third thing is think about campaigns from a top, middle, and bottom of funnel. Agents want to think about just bottom of funnel, but to get people into the bottom of the funnel, you've got to engage them with something like a video, which might be a bit more branded, some other piece of content in the middle that they then might get to the end. That all makes a lot of sense to yourself being in the content business, but that's not commonly thought about in real estate land.
Kylie Davis: (27:17)
Craig Deveson: (27:18)
And so we want to try and put systems in place that just do that automatically so that they don't have to think about it too much.
Kylie Davis: (27:26)
No. Well, you want to build the relationship before you go, "Wham. Bam. Thank you, ma'am." Right?
Craig Deveson: (27:31)
Look, that is quite alright. That's why this social proof, looking at what's happening, reading a white paper, seeing a video on what the best shops are in that local area, whatever it is, all of that's important in building that brand. So when the person engages, they're engaging with someone real, just not… It's more than a transaction.
Kylie Davis: (27:57)
Absolutely. It's a relationship. People want a real estate agent that they can go back to in six or seven or 10 years time once they've had enough of this place and they're looking to move again. They don't want to have to go through the whole speed dating thing.
Kylie Davis: (28:10)
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Kylie Davis: (29:22)
So Craig, what do you think the next five years holds in this space? Even over the last eight, well, two years or so, Facebook's gone a little bit on the nose in terms of the whole data misinformation and fake news and all that sort of stuff. Is social going to be more or less important? Where do you think it's going?
Craig Deveson: (29:45)
I think it will be more important. What will happen, though, is we're going to see an increase in regulation and an increasing privacy settings. So have seen that with Apple bringing that in at the moment. I's going to create some short-term challenges but we'll see a fly to quality. I wouldn't write off any of the big players finding ways around the challenges they have now. So it could be a small step back to take a step forward. That's why that they'll solve it, but it will be challenging in the short-term. But everyone's in the same boat.
Craig Deveson: (30:26)
You're going to see that the femoral content will be more popular. If people aren't familiar with that term, so short term content, so content that you can actually timestamp how long it exists on a channel.
Kylie Davis: (30:40)
Okay. Yep. Yep.
Craig Deveson: (30:42)
That will be more important. And the use of-
Kylie Davis: (30:46)
Sorry. And that's stuff like Facebook Stories or InstaStories, that's that kind of stuff that times out, right?
Craig Deveson: (30:54)
That's correct. Yeah. So people get more worried about their whole life history's on social forever. The ability to post things for day, seven days, or whatever will be more important. The use of technology such as augmented reality. That will all be very important in social. And I think you'll see a return to an enhanced version of Facebook groups. You'll see a whole lot more around local community on social. Yeah, so that greater community feel will come out in products in the future. We're seeing a lot of experimentation around that, like Clubhouse. Twitter's experimenting with a clubhouse in there, so is Facebook. So there's a whole lot of these experiments taking place, but I think you'll see a whole lot more in that kind of local space, probably premium services where you don't have ads might be an option.
Kylie Davis: (32:07)
Craig Deveson: (32:08)
So kind of-
Kylie Davis: (32:08)
Craig Deveson: (32:11)
So like YouTube Premium, that kind of thing. I think you might see more of that. Look, you'll see more social and customer service, and you already see that with the Telstras of the world now, right? It's easier to talk to Telstra or a utility via a chat bot or some other mechanism than ring them up. All of that will become far more normal, particularly dealing with big corporates moving forward.
Kylie Davis: (32:37)
Okay. Well, I love this idea about social media becoming what a delivery channel for virtual or augmented reality. Tell me a little bit more about that.
Craig Deveson: (32:49)
Look, we're just seeing experiments around that, but yeah, certainly being able to wear your goggles or your glasses, and-
Kylie Davis: (33:00)
And get totally sucked in if you haven't been already, right?
Craig Deveson: (33:03)
Yeah. I think that…
Kylie Davis: (33:06)
Facebook world sounds really scary.
Craig Deveson: (33:08)
Yeah. I think this is how social will fight back, and it will be very much around that local community groups. I suppose you could go to the local market virtually and then do, well, e-commerce/social ordering through that process. That whole world gets more integrated, not less.
Kylie Davis: (33:34)
Craig Deveson: (33:36)
Everything that you want will just turn up there. So it'll be less being advertised too, I suspect. It'll just kind of happen and be there even more so than it is now.
Kylie Davis: (33:48)
Yeah. Okay. Okay. That actually sounds really exciting. And it sounds like a great opportunity for real estate agents because no one knows the local community better than local agents, right?
Craig Deveson: (33:58)
That's right. It's how they adopt data, how they adopt these environments as we move forward so that they can still remain a core part of the real estate transaction. Because at the end of the day, they can, and I don't think they're going to go away, but they will need to adopt this newer technology in a greater form than they are now, if they want to remain the number one agent in their area in the next five years, I suspect.
Kylie Davis: (34:32)
Yeah. Awesome. The future looks very bright. There's lots of exciting things coming down the path of social. What does the future look like for Properti? What's on your roadmap?
Craig Deveson: (34:44)
Look, this year, we're very much focused on the Australian market, largely for health and other business reasons. We would like to look at the international arena in the UK and the US at the appropriate time next year, but it is going to be very much dependent on how things open up. I'm not in any hurry to travel…
Kylie Davis: (35:08)
Craig Deveson: (35:10)
… until things work out. But look, I have been, historically, a large international traveller. So at the right time, we'd like to do that. In terms of the product, I think we'd really like to be able to introduce cross-channel recommendations and optimizations so that we could actually say that, "Oh, YouTube's out performing LinkedIn, or that performing Facebook or Instagram, and these sorts of things. So be able to, based on data, be able to provide that kind of cross recommendation engine for a budget, workflow tools so that we could proactively recommend certain things to agents and agencies based off what they're doing, so, "Oh, you haven't posted for five days. Here's an example post. Press this," and it goes out for him. And definitely some curated content. So being able to widen our content options that we can do automatically or semi-automated through the system.
Kylie Davis: (36:16)
Awesome. Awesome. Well, Craig, it's been absolutely fantastic talking to you again. Congratulations on the launch of Properti, and well done on all of the elements that you've pulled into it.
Craig Deveson: (36:30)
Thanks very much. No, it's a great podcast series you run. Very happy to be part of it. Thank you.
Kylie Davis: (36:37)
No worries. Thank you. Thanks for being on The Proptech Podcast.
Kylie Davis: (36:40)
So that was Craig Deveson from Properti, a new platform that helps agents automate their social media by connecting it up to their CRM and creating targeted audiences inside Facebook Ad and Business Manager. Now, we can see from ActivePipe digital marketing research that there is a huge need for products that simplify social media marketing without diluting any of its power. You don't want to be boosting, you want to be really targeting the ads and getting that done properly. And that's where Properti fills the niche.
Kylie Davis: (37:12)
In the new report, Digital Marketing and Real Estate in 2021: Uncovering the Skill Gap, 81% of agents said that they believed social media is effective at building their brand. And a further 78% of agents thought that social media was an effective way to engage with the local community. But that research also shows that when it comes to the details of how to achieve the results they want from social media, which is actually leads, most agents are really unclear, and only 22% have a written digital strategy. So there is a really large need for products like Properti, and Spoke is another, that make it easy for agents to get better results from platforms like Facebook and Instagram.
Kylie Davis: (37:56)
I really do have to congratulate Craig for his work on Properti. After that fateful night at the bar, after The PropTech Summit, he came to me and pitched me with a proptech idea, and I genuinely can't remember what it was, but I do remember it being very complicated and giving him some quite brutal feedback that it would probably never fly. But to his credit, he wasn't daunted. He went back to the drawing board and rethought it through, and Properti is the end result. If you're an agent struggling with social media, and I know there's a lot of you out there, give Properti a try.
Kylie Davis: (38:29)
Now, if you have enjoyed this episode of The Proptech Podcast, please tell your friends or drop me a line either via email on LinkedIn or on our Facebook page. You can follow the podcast on Spotify, Google Podcasts, Apple iTunes, and Anchor, and all good podcast places. I'd like to thank my audio support, Charlie Hollins and the fabulous Jill Escadera who keeps me so organised and our sponsors, Direct Connect, making moving easy, Smudge Wines, exclusive wines made in limited quantities by Matt Wenk, and ActivePipe, now helping you win more leads through your email marketing with content-driven campaigns.
Kylie Davis: (39:07)
Now, if you run a proptech business or you're the founder of a proptech, make sure you join the Proptech Association. It's Australia's new not-for-profit association made up of tech people who are passionate about the property industry and committed to improving experiences in how we buy, sell, rent, manage, build, design and finance property. Joining will give you access to events and networks across Australia and globally, that will help you promote and grow your business. Go to proptechassociation.com.au. Thanks so much, everyone. Until next week, keep on propteching.